Today’s dilemma comes courtesy of Melissa! Here’s what she sent to me a few weeks ago –
What I’m going to copy and paste here is just heartbreaking to me. The Mormon Channel is doing an online series on grace, on their website we read:
“Grace is a “divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.” It is after we exercise our faith and efforts to help ourselves that the Savior steps in to heal and help us. Grace is a gift that will change hearts, minds, and lives in times of deepest sorrow.”
So which is it? Is grace a gift, freely given by Jesus Christ, or is it earned through our “efforts”?
Your logical fallacy: False Dilemma http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/false-dilemma/
I understand that you block everyone who wrecks your arguments, so I expect that to happen soon and for this comment to be deleted. It’s too bad that you are incapable of addressing the obvious flaws in your allegations.
There’s no flaws in her argument. It’s not the false dilemma argument, but rather Mormonism attempts to redefine grace, salvation, God, Jesus, Christ, and every cardinal Christian doctrine. What she says is true, Sean. You owe it to yourself to check out what she says from a BIBLE. I strongly recommend the King James. Investigate her claims! See if they’re TRUE before you decide they are not!
Because I testify to you she tells the truth, the Bible is the inspired word of God, and Jesus Christ is wholly God and Wholly man, and has been so from before time, Amen!
The LDS church has lied to you. Joseph Smith lied to you. Brigham Young lied to you.
TEST all the writings on this blog. They’re the truth. And the day will come where you will either be thankful you did… or wish you had.
you’re wrong, this is not the false dilemma argument. This is the dollar bill argument… either it’s a dollar bill, or its not. The LDS church is right… or it’s not. And I’m telling you, it’s not.
The LDS has changed the meaning of every Christian term, every Christian doctrine. They present logical fallacies as doctrine, they change everything the Bible says. This blog tells you the truth. You need to investigate it, and find out for yourself. You owe it to yourself to find the truth. Because the LDS church has lied to you.
Read this blog. Check out their claims on it. Get a King James Bible and investigate it for yourself.
Because some day you’ll either be thankful you did… or you’ll wish you had. And that choice is for eternity.
Hell is no time and place to find out you were wrong.
Okay Philip, then here’s a question. I was baptized as a Christian in another church. Many years later, after finding no suitable, logical answers to my questions there I converted to the LDS church. Now, am I condemned to hell? If so, why?
Oh, and trust me, the validity of this blog is very much at doubt.
well, for starters, you cannot be saved and yet apostate from the faith. Baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation. What IS salvation is the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, and your desire to accept that. You must be born again.
This has NOTHING to do with logic, as you’ve already seen that what you thought was a logical argument was indeed a misinterpretation of the facts.
You also must accept that logic needs all the facts, and you were not holding all the facts.
This blog demonstrates over and over again that Joseph Smith was a con man, and that he invented a religion, forged false scriptures (many of which were plagiarized from other sources…), and that the higher up’s and the LDS church know this.
You’ve been deliberately lied to.
So, this shows your logic into disarray.
You’ve never compared Mormonism to the Holy Bible, but rather relied on the LDS teachings.
This blog has demonstrated time and again, in hundreds of posts and well thought out arguments, that Mormonism is a direct contradiction not only to itself, but to the Bible and the cross of Jesus Christ.
I urge you again to investigate this with an open mind.
100% of all Mormons who died without Christ as saviour would urge you at this very moment to investigate this for yourself.
Here’s a question – why was it okay for Joseph Smith to investigate the various denominations and read the Bible for himself, but not okay for you?
Think about this, and investigate it before its too late.
I testify that the writings of the blog you’re visiting are 100% correct and scriptural.
Sean – being baptized in a “Christian church” means nothing in of itself – if there is not faith to back up the ritual. Baptism is a sign, just as OT circumcision was.
I’m sure the “validity of this blog” is much in doubt with LDS. Of course it would be! As a former Roman Catholic myself – my blog also is very much in doubt with many Catholic readers.
Michelle, and Philip Dean (the gentleman you were talking to) are all born again under the blood of Christ. The Bible is the only truth to be had – for anyone, at any place, and at any time. If you for once, put aside the BOM, and alone, prayed for the Lord to reveal Himself to you, and read the the Gospel of John, you may see the Truth – the Truth which is a Person – Jesus Christ.
Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
If baptism has nothing to do with salvation, then what is the point of it? Couldn’t a person be saved without it?
“This has NOTHING to do with logic, as you’ve already seen that what you thought was a logical argument was indeed a misinterpretation of the facts.”
“You also must accept that logic needs all the facts, and you were not holding all the facts.”
Wow. Either it has nothing to do with logic or it does, skippy. Make up your mind. As to my “misinterpretation” of the facts, that hasn’t been proven. Again, the validity of the opinions published on this blog as fact have been proven, ahem, false by several people.
I am a convert to the LDS church. I was raised in a protestant household, and was baptised by a Southern Baptist preacher at the age of 13. I was saved (and for you to say that I wasn’t is judgement and you, sir, don’t know me). Further, I have read the Bible more times than I have read the BOM.
Grace is a gift, freely given and paid for by Jesus. Is there anything you can do to earn grace? I, and all of the Mormons I know whom I’ve spoken to on this topic completely realize that we are not perfect. Our sins have distanced us from Father, and only by his mercy can we be forgiven and washed clean. Likewise, Father does expect us to turn away from our sins and to work at following his will.
Apparently though you believe that a person can be “saved” and still do nothing to turn from their sins. Otherwise, you at least in some degree agree with LDS doctine.
Finally, no one in the LDS church has ever told me that I can’t read the Bible for myself (in fact, I’m encouraged to) and I have previously examined several denominations. No one is holding me to attending the church. No one shows up at my door asking me why I missed a meeting. No one. So, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from, but it appears that you are sorely mistaken about the church.
Okay Sean or Shane or whatever you like to call yourself –
I kicked you off here not because I don’t like the truth to be told, but because of your behavioral problem.
You seem to not be able to understand the rules for this blog so I’ll be blocking you again. I’ll give you enough time to apologize first.
You see Sean, when adults who are truly interested in having a dialogue with others to present their point of view they’re civil, Christlike and overall, decent in their own presentation.
I don’t recall anything in the Bible that condones name calling and if memory serves me correctly your own church publicly states the same, albeit their comments don’t always reflect that.
If you’d like to discuss the differences between Mormonism and Christianity we invite you and anyone else to state your case. If however, you’re going to digress into antics resembling immature junior high school kids, we won’t participate. You can develop, publish and write all you want that we’re liars and won’t discuss these things, but keep in mind that each time you do such things, God is watching you.
We’re praying for you Sean and if you’d like to present your side of things in a logical matter without name calling you have the floor, otherwise this blog and our site probably isn’t the best fit for you. I’ve noticed there are many other sites and blogs who’ve had the same experience we have with your behavior so I’m sure they’re praying as well.
Michelle
1 Cor 1:18
sage_brush – when I say validity, I mean that Michelle has frequently published factually inaccuracies about the LDS church. Others in my group have spoken to her about that. She has failed to address these issues. I would love to get you in touch with them if you’d like so they can provide those for you.
Sean, if you’re going to be patronizing and insulting, we can stop this right now…
You’re jumping to conclusions, the same thing you’re accusing me of.
What you’re talking about with logic and full access to information are two different things.
I’m showing you concern, and yet you’re being rude and insulting.
I’m merely going to renew my observation that the Bible tells us one cannot be saved, and walk away. That does not require any knowledge of you, personally.
The Bible also tells us baptism does not save. salvation according to Ephesians 2:8-9 is the gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast. What’s the point of baptism then? a symbol of obedience and identification with the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “Buried with Him in death, raised to walk in the newness of life.
Michelle spends a great deal of daily time on this blog. Sage Brush spends a great amount of time as well, reaching out to the lost.
I’m reaching out to you to tell you that you’re in a very bad situation. You’re worshiping a Jesus Christ who is not of the Bible, but another Jesus. Another Jesus is another Gospel and another gospel cannot save. Galatians 1 tells us that any man who preach any other gospel is accursed.
These aren’t my opinions. This is the Bible.
I strongly urge you to seek the real Jesus Christ. And I renew my urge for you to investigate the info on this site – which is accurate.
I guarantee that if you do not, you will forever regret that decision.
Last question – what do you believe more, BoM or the Holy Bible? You can’t believe both, they do not say the same things, despite Joseph Smith’s rampant plagiarism of the bible.