False Prophecies of Joseph Smith and the Twelve LDS Apostles
History of the Church 2:381-382; “And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion, and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full…Further Visions and Revelations. The visions of heaven were opened to them also. Some of them saw the face of the Savior, and others were ministered unto by holy angels, and the spirit of prophecy and revelation was poured out in mighty power; and loud hosannas, and glory to God in the highest, saluted the heavens, for we all communed with the heavenly host. And I saw in my vision all of the Presidency in the celestial kingdom of God, and many others that were present.” – Joseph Smith, Thursday, January 21, 1836
This large section above tells us of a prophecy given by Joseph Smith in which he sees the twelve LDS apostles in heavenly glory. However, if you dig a little deeper we learn that five of those apostles were ex-communicated from the fold! Part of this revelation can also be found in D&C 88.
Lyman Johnson HC 3:20; “…and he was cut off from the Church.”
Luke Johnson HC 2:528; “Apostasy in Kirtland. I returned to Kirtland on or about the 10th of December. During my absence in Missouri Warren Parrish, John F. Boynton, Luke S. Johnson, Joseph Coe, and some others united together for the overthrow of the Church.”
William McLellin HC 3:31; “…he had no confidence in the heads of the Church, believing they had transgressed, and had got out of the way, consequently he quit praying and keeping the commandments of God, and indulged himself in his lustful desires…”
William Smith HC 7:483; “William Smith who has published a pamphlet against the Twelve was excommunicated from the church by unanimous vote.”
Thomas Marsh HC 3:284; “…the following persons be excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, viz.: George M. Hinkle, Sampson Avard, John Corrill, Reed Peck, William W. Phelps, Frederick G. Williams, Thomas B. Marsh, Burr Riggs, and several others.”
2 John 1:10-11; “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
So we have to ask; did the apostles get saved or not?
every thing that joe smith said and did was a lye just like thomas s monsen today its all about money
First, you have to understand that a vision is not the same thing as a prophecy. A vision is meant to reveal things, or to teach things. It can be a prophecy, but it is not always a prophecy. After all, Stephan saw a vision at the time of his death, in which he saw Christ standing at the right hand of God.
So, Joseph Smith, in vision say the twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven. Was this intended as a prediction of who would be there, or was it a vision as to who was currently worthy to be there, as a testament to the people. At this time all the twelve were worthy of that glory, and would have been there if they continued faithful.
As to those who were ex-communicated (and you forgot about Orson Hyde) three of them actually did return to the church: Thomas Marsh, William Smith, and Orson Hyde. Of those who didn’t, I am not sure if they are saved or not. They might be, which would not be at all contrary to the gospel if you actually understood it. I would not be at all surprised if all of them were there.
In order for you to prove this to be a false prophecy you first need to prove it to be a prophecy, and then you have to prove it false. As you have not proven it to be a prophecy, and the only way to prove it false is to visit Heaven, I think we can just skip this one.
Maybe saying that he “beheld the redemption of Zion” would classify the entire verse as a prophecy. As we know that Zion (Israel) will be redeemed in the future…
Shem –
If Smith saw something revealed to him by God why would he show him something that wouldn’t be true for the future? if the guys were worthy to be there wouldn’t the same be true if they were going to turn bad in the future and not be there?
This proves Smith’s proclamations (prophecies and otherwise) are false. God doesn’t do things half way.
CAMDEN
Not necessarily. After all he separates the two things with the word “also.” This could easily indicate that it was actually two different visions.
I never said it wasn’t a prophecy, only that we really cannot prove it to be a prophecy.
LIFEAFTER
Sorry, but it proves nothing. All it proves is that Joseph Smith saw a vision of the twelve in the Celestial Kingdom. Your assertion that God would not show this unless it was going to be has no real basis in logic. You ask why he would, I ask why he wouldn’t.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind such a vision to affirm my current standing with God, but I wouldn’t take such as a guarantee.
However, you miss the part in which I said they could have been saved, and so even if it was a prophecy you have no proof it won’t be fulfilled; apart from your own desire to have it false of course.
In all my reading I have learned that no man can truly know the eternal fate of another unless such is directly revealed by God. So, unless you show me were God has declared these specific men to be denied that kingdom you have failed to prove anything that you were trying to.
I assume when the text was written that the 12 were still living on earth? If so, wouldn’t seeing them in the celestial kingdom classify it as a future event, thus, prophetic in it’s meaning?
Exactly my point Camden!
Not necessarily.
As I said, it is possible that this was a vision to indicate the current worthiness of the men. At this time they were worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, and so Joseph Smith saw them there as a testament to that worthiness.
If this was the case then it is not a prophecy.
Now, I would like to mention one other thing about this wonderful quote. Joseph Smith states that he saw many things that cannot be written. So, he saw the twelve there, but what else did he see, and how does that effect the meaning of the vision of the twelve?
Now, I am not really arguing that this isn’t a prophecy, nor am I arguing that it was fulfilled. I am simply pointing out that given the record of it that we possess it is impossible to prove either and thus using it is just silly.