The New World & Jacob’s Olive Trees
Jacob 5:4; “And it came to pass that the master of the vineyard went forth, and he saw that his olive-tree began to decay; and he said: I will prune it, and dig about it, and nourish it, that perhaps it may shoot forth young and tender branches, and it perish not.
Romans 11:17; “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree”
Jacob seemed pretty adamant about vineyards as they show up again and again in the following verses as well: 27, 62, 64 & 6:2.
Just looking at these verses by themselves we aren’t able to see the serious flaws they contain, but there are a lot of problems with Jacob’s teachings.
First of all grafting of trees in the New World didn’t take place until well past the time of Columbus’ arrival. Jacob supposedly lived circa 544 BC.
Secondly, olive trees didn’t make it to the Americas until Antonio de Rivera brought seedlings over in 1560 AD and planted them in Lima, Peru.
Thirdly, grape vines weren’t something the locals were known for cultivating. While grapes were in the Americas, they were gathered at this time in history, not pruned.
Lastly, and most importantly, this vocabulary and teaching is from a New Testament setting. Israelites in the 6th century BC wouldn’t have understood that Gentiles would someday be saved – vs. 74 alludes to this based on what Jacob said in becoming “one body”.
You people are beyond belief. You don’t bother to study what you are criticizing enough to even understand the basics of the verses. First, Jacob is quoting the prophet Zennock, who is an Old World prophet. Thus all that you have argued against is empty and void. All of your argument are made out of ignorance of is who is being quoted here. Since Zennock is a person from the Old World, then all of the arguments you have made about Olive trees and grafting are nothing more than sounding brass and tinkling cymbals, much noise signifying nothing. Next time, try to understand before you criticize. That way you won’t be embarrassed as you are here.
Well outside of the BoM there’s no evidence this Zennock guy ever existed.
This is what makes my heart sad for the Mormon people. Your attitude, rudeness and just downright pride is very telling.
So tell me, specifically where is this Zennock fellow from? Where in the “Old World” did he live and to whom was he prophesying?
Know that we’re praying for you Marvin and hoping you’ll find time on this Good Friday to focus on what Jesus did for you by hanging on that cross.
Michelle Grim
Whether Zennock lived or not is beside the point. The whole basis for your criticism was false. You provided evidence of New World olive culture and New World grafting. You didn’t even realize that the parable was from an Old World perspective. That alone provides proof of the shallowness of your criticism. You don’t bother to properly understand what you are attempting to find fault with. Something that I find to be very unChristian.
Did you even bother to see what contact Joseph Smith might have had with olive culture in his life prior to 1830? This is evidence of the validity of the Book of Mormon. Joseph knew next to nothing about the cultivation of olive trees but the parable is consistent with not modern but ancient olive culture, something very few people knew anything about let alone a farm boy in New York.
And this Good Friday, I will be focusing on what Christ is doing for me now because his Atonement is not just something he did for me 2,000 years ago but is alive and active in my life today.
Marvin
Hi Marvin –
1. The story wasn’t a parable anyone from the New World in their rudimentary ways would’ve understood. Parables are examples to use of experiences or things that person would understand in their world.
2. Joseph Smith’s experience or inexperience w/ olives has nothing to do with what he was supposedly translating. If all the writings were on the plates the only thing he had to do was write down what was there.
3. The word crucify is tough sometimes, as is the word Jesus, I know. Tell me Marvin, what did Jesus do for you the day He was crucified and how do His actions of 2,000 years ago affect your life today?
What is the meaning of the word atonement and how did it work? What did God expect from His people? Specifically, how did Jesus qualify to fulfill the Law in order to atone?
4. Being unchristian is calling people names and personally attacking the looks, intelligence, etc of someone. Telling the truth is not unchristian.
In fact my post yesterday pointed out that on the Tuesday of Holy Week Jesus delivered His Olivet Discourse. In so doing He warned his disciples about the false teachers and told them to be alert by watching. He also reminded all of us that His word lasts forever – He assured us nothing would change.
5. You said that it didn’t matter whether Zennock lived or not. Well Marvin it matters a lot! If he didn’t live then why are they making up stories about people in the BoM that never existed? Could it be that Jacob didn’t live either or what about Nephi?
6. Exactly what did I publish that was false?
Once again, you have avoided the points I made. You refuse to address the fact that you made a criticism of something you didn’t bother to understand. Your criticism was that the New World new nothing of Olive culture and grafting until after the time period of the Book of Mormon. What you didn’t bother to understand was that Zennock was an Old World prophet and knew quite a lot about the Olive culture of the Old World. Are you willing to address this point that I made? I await your response.
Marvin
PS There is still something wrong with your website. I check both of the boxes below but I have never received an email telling me that you have made a response. Can you fix this?
Once again Marvin you’re assuming too much.
I’ve not been at my ministry desk because I’m sick right now. #2 – I’m on the Lord’s schedule, not yours. If you feel I’ve not given you the amount of attention you need turn to the Lord Marvin He has all the time in the world. Keep that light of negative thoughts going though.
You still didn’t address the issue of the unknown prophet Zennock. Where’s the proof he lived and what did he do? How did he know about grafting? Where is he from?
I could tell you I’m from a line of British royalty but if I don’t have proof it means nothing.
Praying for you Marvin.
Your posts won’t automatically be posted unless it’s ok’d be me because of the settings I’ve attached to it. As for it not notifying you – I’ll double check but it should be working and if not then it’s WordPress, not me.
With Love in Christ;
Michelle Grim
You are still not answering the first point I made. It does not matter whether Zennock lived or not. My point is that your arguments about New World olive culture are meaningless because no one but you has claimed that the Nephites grew any olives. This is a strawman argument that you made up because you never bothered to read the text carefully enough to realize that Zennock was an Old World prophet not a Nephites. Your whole criticism is based on a false assumption.
Marvin
If the prophet didn’t exist then the point is moot. More fiction from the BOM…
Susan, I am not arguing about the existence of the prophet. The claim was not made whether he lived or not. The claim was made that the New World did not have Olive culture until the 16th century, as if that made the Book of Mormon false because of this parable.This claim is false because the prophet being quoted was from the Old World not the New. Doesn’t matter who was real and who wasn’t. That is not the argument. I wonder if anyone will address the point I made?
Marvin
i already answered this and you rejected it by not paying attention. Parables were given as lessons of things pertaining to those living at that time. The parable of the olives is something Smith took from the Bible and tried to apply it to those living in the Americas which is something not tangible to those people at that time.
Michelle
And you are not responding to my point. You just made the claim that Joseph took this parable from the Bible. Can you tell me where? This parable shows a remarkable understanding of ancient olive culture; something that Joseph had no knowledge of. And neither did any of his contemporaries.
You claim that parables are for those living at the time. If that is true, then who were the people that Zennock was writing to? Was it not the people in Israel since he was an old world prophet? Just because Jacob used it to make a point to the people of his time doesn’t mean ti was totally meaningless to them. How often has your minister explained a parable in his sermon?
Is the Bible full of things that were relevant to the people at the time but noe so much for us? How many kings do you have any business with? How many kings do you know that give their servants sums of money and then hold them accountable for how they used it? Is this still relevant to you at this tiome?
I didn’t respond to your point because you were ignoring my point. But now I have answered yours, would you do me the courtesy of answering mine?
Marvin