Journal of Discourses 26:65 “Now, I have heard that there are men among us who are professing to cure witchcraft and other evils of that kind. I believe they call themselves astrologers. More injurious ideas and practices than these cannot be introduced among a people to lead them to destruction, and I wish to warn you before sitting down, in regard to this. Do not seek for those who have peepstones, for soothsayers, and for those who profess to be able to counteract the influence of witchcraft. They who say so, seek to play upon your fears, they seek to take advantage of superstitious fears, and seek to use them for their own advantage and bring those who will listen to them in bondage to an influence and spirit that is as foreign to the spirit of God as hell is foreign to heaven. Any man who professes to have this authority, to have this power, and to use power outside of that which the Priesthood authorizes, is a man that should not be listened to; his claims are false, and his methods are from beneath and not from God.” – George Q. Cannon, Salt Lake City, December 14, 1884
Leviticus 20:6-7 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. 7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.”
Oops. Now what?
Does Mr. Cannon’s insight from God mean it’s bad news for all of Mormonism? Everything given to Joe Smith through the god he talked to was done through the means of peep-stones, astrology, and other nefarious manners of witchcraft.
Again, my heart breaks for the Mormon people! If you’re LDS, what if any concerns does this bring to your thoughts?
We’re praying Mormons will come to the foot of the cross where they’ll find forgiveness of sins from the true Jesus of the Bible!
With Love in Christ;
Michelle
I’m LDS and Christ is my Savior. I would imagine these passages are speaking about satan’s counterfeits for things God has made such as the Urim and Thummim spoken of in the Bible. If that’s the case, then I think it boils down to whether the Urim and Thummim Joseph Smith used was of God or of satan. I have received knowledge that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and therefore I believe these things were of God rather than of satan. Thanks for your prayers. I pray for you as well.
Dear Robert,
Thank you so much for your comment. And I’m going to let Rev. Billy Graham answer this.
“I urge you, as strongly as I know how, not to dabble or get involved in anything to do with occult practices, including this one. At best, they are deceptive and fraudulent; at worst, they can involve you in matters which are satanic in origin.
The Bible is very clear that such things are false and will only lead you away from God and His truth…(Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The Bible urges us to turn in faith to Christ and seek the truth He has given us in the Bible. God’s Word alone gives us spiritual truth; any other path will never tell us with finality what is beyond the grave, but because of His resurrection we can know from Christ everything we need to know.
If you have been involved in this or any other occult practice, you must confess it to God as a sin, renounce the practice, and turn to Jesus Christ for his forgiveness, cleansing, and protection. You may find it helpful to consult with a gospel-preaching pastor.”
Now Robert… You said Christ is your Savior, and I believe you. So for clarification, is Christ a created being, or has he ALWAYS existed? Is he Lucifer brother, or did he create Lucifer? If you believe the LDS church’s definition of Christ, then that is a false christ, and a false christ can’t save you. And by doing temple ordinances and works for Christ, means He can’t be your “Savior”, because when you do these works in the temple you are dabbling in the occult, and that does nothing to glorify God.
Please, don’t just take my word for it, I kindly ask you to do a little research on this matter.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Melissa
We pray you’ll take Melissa’s heartfelt reply seriously Robert, and know that we’re praying for you as well!
Michelle
Life After Ministries
Exodus 28:30, Nehemiah 7:65, Ezra 2:63, and Leviticus 8:8 all speak of the Urim and Thummim. Those are valid and God-approved. So the question really comes down to whether Joseph Smith’s use of the Urim and Thummim was God-approved or not. I received that answer and invite you to do the same.
I would never question your relationship with Christ because I don’t know anything about you or your relationship with Him. My understanding of Jesus Christ comes from the Bible, just like you. I’ve spent 28 years studying Jesus Christ and His gospel and the Bible in multiple languages to make sure I’m following Him in the best way possible. I feel confident that you and I are worshiping the same all-powerful, all-knowing Son of God, and when we both stand before the judgment bar of Christ after this life, we’ll both know that we were fighting on the same side of the battle against evil and Christ will know us both.
There are so many atheists and people who are anti-Christ that you and I should be fighting against instead of nitpicking our differences. As disciples of Christ, we should be on the same team working together to bring to pass His will on earth as it is in Heaven. I love your passion. Please point it at the real enemy so you and I can work together toward bringing all of God’s children unto Christ.
I was raised LDS, but have deliberately removed myself from affiliation with that church by degrees. (although I still attend meetings weekly and support the members of my community as though they are family) I would genuinely appreciate an earnest and honest reply to this glaring contradiction. I don’t need scripture passages. I don’t need a general authority’s statement. I need an honest, indefensive and loving reply from a human.
After all, who am I to certify the authenticity or inaccuracy of Joseph Smith’s claims? Ultimately, my personal level of conviction regarding his claims to prophesy, authority, priesthood, “translation” of scripture (by scrying) etc., are something that I am/will be responsible for. And I accept that. It’s called responsibility, and the mature use of agency. But a big “logical fallacy/cognitive error” light goes off in my brain when I try to understand the purely ideological (and frankly mindless) notion that although Christian doctrine explicitly and repeatedly warns against the use of “peep stones,” witchcraft, divination, dowsing, mediums, tarot cards, etc., AND that it explicitly warns that prior to Christ’s second coming, there will be false prophets, a great apostasy, an entity (or entities) posing as anti-Christ, and that even the most demonic of messengers know the scriptures inside and out, and can appear as angels of light. Yet, what you say is: “Yeah, but that’s just for everyone else.” A cursory search (even within “approved” church literature) confirms that Joseph was known as a dowser, treasure hunter, and boasted a 33rd degree freemason; to say nothing of his personal character with sanctioned hidden/plural marriage and even “relations” with a 14yr old girl! And don’t tell me, “well times were different back then.”
Bottom line: If freemasonry is “occult” and corrupt, then why was he a member of this organization up to his death? If one is called as a prophet, and has the authority and “gifts” to bring forth scripture, build temples, and commune with God and angels on the regular…then PLEASE explain to my why he had to go “glean” symbols, ordinances, and rites from Egypt (the symbolic land of man’s arrogance and false priesthood) and from a blatantly satanic institution, (masonry) and why even at the moment of his death, he threw up masonic signs and uttered masonic words. Why are there pentagrams on the SLC temple? Why lunar cycles? Why is his peep stone a sacred artifact? And If his answer to his personal religious confusion was to pray directly to God and NOT follow the suspicious and errant doctrines of the day, which did not resonate with him…then why are LDS members so terrible to their friends and family and outsiders who also pray earnestly about these issues, yet receive no answer to their prayers? PLEASE explain to me the mechanism (aside from indoctrination and defensiveness) which allows devout and good LDS church members to say on one hand: “All of these things, one may not do. There is scripture to back it up”. Then on the other hand, you say: “Well except for this guy, because it was different for him.” Cognitive dissonance is not permission enough for you to double-down on incoherent arguments, with the trump card that “faith” is the answer and you’re somehow righteous for not asking the same questions. I’m concerned that so many good and well-intentioned members of the church conflate willful IGNORANCE (avoidance of the argument) with faith, and place obedience and piety within a human organization, (business, actually) above a true, one-on-one relationship with their Father in Heaven. (which requires ongoing prayer and the humility to receive answers) THAT is the story of Joseph Smith, as I understand it. And I’m not saying that I doubt him. It’s not my place and I don’t want to judge another with the type of severity that could return on my judgement day. Indeed, current member or not, this story is as deep as my DNA, and not an hour passes that I don’t wrestle with these things. I hope the story and everything that comes from it are true. But I’d argue that it’s not so much as a “lack of faith,” so much as an earnest and ongoing conversation that people like myself are having with God. Regardless of what you believe or what church you belong to, you should be able to lovingly articulate the reasons why you believe such things, without being condescending, insulting, or dismissive to anyone wanting to hold space for a sincere conversation.
SC – For me, it boils down to whether or not God commanded something. There are many examples of God giving prophets and seers Urim and Thummim stones, which was good. Satan always has his counterfeits for anything God does, so there are counterfeits for seeing stones like crystal balls, dowsing rods, etc. So, was his use of the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone directed by God or not? I’d say God commanded them based on the fruits of that labor. The Book of Mormon has brought me and millions of others to a stronger faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I have received a personal testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, that it’s indeed the Word of God. I’ve also received a testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. He made mistakes and was learning as he went, but He was called and ordained by God. And yes, he was also caught up earlier in his life with some of these counterfeits, and he later repented and talked about the differences between these counterfeits and God’s methods.
As for freemasonry, it was common for people in those days to be involved with it. If you have concerns about that, you can search on https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org to get more nuanced answers, as it’s very different from what you’ve explained in your comment.
Also, the marriage to Helen Mar Kimball (the 14-year-old you brought up) was a “Dynastic Marriage” to seal two family lines together. Joseph and Helen didn’t live together as that wasn’t the purpose of the sealing. Reading the journals of those involved, we learn that Helen’s father arranged the dynastic marriage because he wanted his and Joseph’s family lines sealed together. In those days, they were still trying to figure out how sealings worked and what they meant. You can find more source documents around these topics at the site I mentioned above.
You have used a shotgun method of argumentation in your comment by listing off several topics simultaneously. I’ve researched all of the issues you’ve brought up in your comment and have found a much different picture of things by going to source documents, journals, etc., rather than second-, third-, or fourth-hand testimony from enemies of the church. But it’s essential to look at all sides of each argument to see the bigger picture with more nuance and clarity.
I am happy to discuss one specific topic at a time with you. I don’t find shotgun discussions fruitful. I hope this has answered at least some of your questions.