Whom Did the Lord Choose?
Ensign, Jan. 2006, 34-35; “In a surprisingly short time, the [ancient] Church disassembled. Without Apostles, the Church lost its anchor and began to drift on every wind of doctrine. Spiritual gifts disappeared, revelations ceased, the keys to the priesthood were lost, ordinances changed. Ultimately, the purity of our Lord’s gospel began to meld with other doctrines, beliefs, and practices. Philosophies and political influences began to infiltrate and transform the Church.
“During the centuries that followed, the light dimmed even further. President Thomas S. Monson . . . explained: ‘The dark ages of history seemed never to end.’ . . .
“At first a few great reformers began to speak out. When John Wycliffe completed the first English translation of the entire Bible, those in authority did all they could to destroy it. Many of Wycliffe’s followers were severely punished.
“Jan Hus, another fearless reformer who spoke against corruption in the church, was chained by the neck to a stake and burned.
“Thousands of others heroically searched for the truth and risked their all as they sought to worship God according to the dictates of their consciences.” – Joseph B. Wirthlin, “The Restoration and Faith”
Matthew 24:4-5, 23-24; “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
All the above claims and accusations are just that. There is no external evidence that the ancient church disassembled. Where is the proof?
Where stands clear and irrefutable evidence that spiritual gifts and revelations ceased to exist but in the accusatory allegations from the mind of Joseph Smith?
And why is Mr. Wirthlin’s message contradictory? At first he said everything disappeared and was lost and then he begins talking about Hus and Wycliffe – so what part of his accusation is true?
While I do wholeheartedly agree that reform was needed, to arbitrarily throw the baby out with the bath water is dangerous indeed!
Hus, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Bunyan, and Luther as well as untold others were all guided by the hand of God. And while the Dark Ages did seem to go on forever, God in His mercy promised us the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against His church. Today we experience this miracle and evidence of His words every time we see the face of another believer.
We’re witnessing yet another truth even today – Jesus told us to be on guard and watch out for there would be many false christs and false doctrines.
What contradiction?
All that was the gospel was lost. This does not mean that the agency of man was lost, or that some men did not recognize the darkness they lived in. The reformers knew instinctively that the current church did not have the true gospel, and so they sought after it. But without the gifts of the spirit they were unable to find it.
Nothing is contradicted.
As to the evidence, I would love the proof that it didn’t disassemble.
I would love the proof that it did.
The core of the Christian faith remained intact and that is the Word of God. That is where we find the gospel. To say that “all that was the gospel was lost” is to say that the core of the gospel was lost. The core of the gospel is;
We are seperated from God by our sin. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died for our sins as the once and final sacrafice. We put our trust in Him (believing that He is the only Way), turn towards Him (which is turning away from the world of sin) and walk in His ways (follow Him and draw nearer to Him). That has always been in the Bible. Professing Joseph Smith as a prophet of God as a requirement didn’t happen until Joseph Smith said it should.
Sure many fallen men brought their own baggage into the faith and made false edicts or twisted things for their own purposes, but the Bible withstood the storms.
Constantine mixed Christianity with the Roman culture. Luther said “No way” and preached the pure gospel found in the Bible. That is why wherever we move around this country, we attend non-denominational churches. They teach and hold true to the things only found in the Bible. They don’t add extra things that are not found in there.
The gifts of the Spirit never departed from the earth. The Holy Spirit would’ve had to depart and Jesus said, “I am always with you, even to the ends of the earth”. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer when they put their faith in Jesus, as told to us in the Gospel. Luther had to have had the gift of discernment and the power of the Holy Spirit to go against the largest organization on the earth. What he did was bold.
The bible was not perfectly preserved, and to say it was is to once again assert something that has no proof.
As to the core of Christianity, I have to disagree. The Core of true Christianity is the plan of Salvation; the work and glory of God in bringing to pass the Immortality and Eternal Life of man. This great plan was lost, as evidenced in all the Christian traditions that deny the divine potential of man.
The mere fact that people believed reform was needed is proof enough to me that the truth was lost. After all, if the truth was still there then why reform it?
When Christ said he and the spirit would be with the apostles, he was talking to the apostles, and to those of real faith. The problem is that in order to have real faith one must have real knowledge. So, oncefalse doctrines were introduced into the church, those who accepted them could no longer have real faith, and thus the spirit would ahve stop “indwelling” them; which is exactly what e believe.
Now, I don’t know what Martin Luthor could not go against the Church simply on his own agency and determination. It was bold, but to say you can’t be bold with the spirit is kind of silly.
Now, I happen to think he was inspired to a certain extent, but then I don’t think this ia a gift of the spirit. After all, I also think that Columbus was inspired in his voyage, as were those who discovered the technology for such a voyage. So too were the many inventors that have, thoughout history, improved the lives of people and made the spreading of the gospel easier (like the Romans and their transportation systems).
The spirit of God can, and does, rest on people to move them into the needed actions to bring to pass his plans. However, the gifts of the spirit are not simply the inspiration that guides certain men. They are direct manifestation of faith, given only to those of the true faith that do the will of the Father.
I have to believe that His Word will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8). That is what Faith is. To believe something that doesn’t have proof.
You believe that Joseph was visited by an angel and shown where to find the plates. That Joseph had those plates and translated them into what is called “The Book of Mormon”. So I will ask you, “where’s the proof?”
You are taking Joseph’s and the witnesses word for it. You have full faith that the B of M is the word of God. I have full faith that the Bible is the word of God.
The Bible was written over a time span of 1,500 years, by 40 different authors, on 3 different continents… and from beginning to end it points to our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, as our only hope for salvation. From “the seed of the woman” found in Genesis 3, to the “Letters to the 7 Churches” found in Revelation 2 and 3… we know that there is a seperation from God through sin. The only one that bridges that chasm is Jesus. It doesn’t take Smith, Young, Kimball, or Hinckley to show me the way. Jesus showed us the way… “Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me”.
To clarify what I was saying is that the core of the Gospel is the plan of salvation (Believe Jesus is the Savior, Repent, and follow His ways)… which is still intact within the Bible.
I will be away from the computer probably until after the 1st., so Grace and Peace be with you and your family. May you have a wonderfully blessed Christmas and a happy new year.
CAMDEN
I also believe “that His Word will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8).” What I do not believe is that the physical record of his word will necessarily stand forever. do you see the difference?
In other words, I believe that everything that God truly did say will come to pass in its entirety. But I do not believe that everything uninspired men claim he said will come to pass.
Just because evil of careless men altered the words of God does not mean that His Word will not stand forever.
I am fully persuaded by the Bible that there are many things God has said that we have no record of, but they will still come to pass and we will be made aware of them eventually.
For example, we have the many books that the Bible itself talks about which are not known to us at this time: Ex. 24:7 took the book of the covenant; Num. 21:14 book of the wars of the Lord; Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18 book of Jasher;
1 Kgs. 11:41 book of the acts of Solomon; 1 Chr. 29:29 book of Samuel the seer; 2 Chr. 9:29 book of Nathan the prophet; 2 Chr. 12:15 book of Shemaiah the prophet; 2 Chr. 13:22 acts of Abijah … in the story of the prophet Iddo;
2 Chr. 20:34 book of Jehu; 2 Chr. 33:19 the sayings of the seers; 1 Cor. 5:9 Earlier epistle to the Corinthians; Eph. 3:3 earlier epistle to the Ephesians; Col. 4:16 epistle written to Laodiceans; Jude 1:3 earlier epistle of Jude; Jude 1:14 some prophecies of Enoch known to Jude.
All of this is ample evidence to me that the Bible, though it is the word of God, is not the complete word of God.
Still, God would make sure that His people would get the gospel they needed to know in order to be saved.
I agree, and he has; through the Book of Mormon and the work for the dead all people of all ages will have the chance to both hear and accept the gospel. God, in his infinite mercy, has prepared the way for all men if they will accept his gospel.
I had a feeling you were going to say that…
Doesn’t make it any less true.
My point is that most everything you say is part of our religion. We just look at things in a different, and in my opinion, grander way.
God gives all men the chance to learn of and accept him as their savior.
God forgives all sins, eventually (except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost) and all who have their sins forgiven will receive some degree of Heaven. This includes all the vilest of sinners, and so we have a much broader understanding of the mercy of God, for to us his mercy is extended to both the faithful and the unbelieving, as far as his justice will allow it to extend.
I have yet to hear any other Christian denomination profess such a grand scale of mercy as the LDS do.