Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged Book of Mormon, Christianity, Christians, Exodus, false apostle, false doctrine, false prophet, false teacher, Genesis, God, God incarnate, grace, I AM THAT I AM, Jesus Christ, Jesus is God, Jesus spirit brother of Lucifer, John, joseph smith, lds church, mormonism, mormons, polygamy, Redeemer, salvation, Savior, truth on 03/14/2011| Leave a Comment »
March 14 – Ex. 3:14, John 8:58; “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”. “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am”.
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What an amazing set of scriptures to give to a Mormon! Ask them why they think the Pharisees were so angry with Jesus after reading these two verses to them. Then share their own scriptures with them and ask them what it means.
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Introductory page of the Book of Mormon, 2nd paragraph: “JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE ETERNAL GOD”.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged Adam, angel of light, be like gods, bible, Bruce McConkie, Eve, fall of man, false doctrines, false gospel, false prophet, false teacher, freedom, Genesis, God, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, lies, Mormon doctrine, mormonism, original sin, salvation, Savior, tree of knowledge, tree of life, truth on 03/13/2011| Leave a Comment »
March 13 – Gen. 3:24; “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim’s, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life”.
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Next to John 3:16, the Genesis scripture should be at the forefront of every believer’s mind. Man was separated from God, thus the need for John 3:16. It was not God’s intention for this to happen. He knew it would happen, but it doesn’t mean that He willed it to happen. The Mormon believes man had to sin in order to know joy, sadness and to even procreate. They believe this sin commandment came from God.
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“In conformity to the will of the Lord, Adam fell both spiritually and temporally.” Mormon Doctrine, pg. 268.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged assurance of salvation, believers temple of God, bible, body of Christ, Book of Mormon, Bruce McConkie, Comforter, Doctrine and Covenants, false apostles, false gospel, false prophet, false teachers, freedom, God, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit down payment, indwelling, Isaiah, Jesus, lds church, Mormon doctrine, mormonism, salvation, Savior, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, trustworthy, truth, Works for salvation on 03/12/2011| Leave a Comment »
March 12 – John 16:17; “Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”.
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Please show the Mormon the truth about the Holy Spirit. He actually dwells inside of the believer!
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“Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself…that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 151.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged bible, blood atonement, Brigham Young, Brigham Young a god and savior, covenant, false church, false doctrines, false gospel, false prophets, freedom, God, Jesus, Jesus Christ, joseph smith, Joseph Smith a god to Mormons, keys of the kingdom, lds church, mormonism, none other name under heaven, salvation, truth, Wilford Woodruff on 02/27/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 27 – “Neither is salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
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AMEN! We must ask the Mormon what the phrase “none other name” means to them.
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“Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Saviour, Brother Joseph was his God and the one that gave Joseph the keys of the kingdom was his God which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and (the) Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.” Journal of Wilford Woodruff, April 10, 1852.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged bible, Doctrine and Covenants, Emmanuel, false prophecies, false prophet, false teachings, forgiveness for sins, freedom, God incarnate, God with us, God's love for mankind, Jesus, Jesus is a god, Jesus is God, Jesus is God Incarnate, joseph smith, lds church, miracle, mormonism, Only Begotten Son, Redeemer, salvation, Savior, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, truth on 02/25/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 25 – “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even death of the cross.” Phil. 2:5-6, 8.
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There are actually two subjects to notice with this verse. Explain the word “robbery” to the Mormon. In the Greek, it means “grasped”. The other subject is the belief that Jesus had to perform, or work, to receive His salvation.
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“If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 308
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged 8 years old, age of accountability, bible, Doctrine and Covenants, fall of man, false gospel, false prophet, false teacher, Garden, Genesis, God, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, mormonism, nature of man, of Eden, original sin, Redeemer, salvation, Savior, truth on 02/24/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 24 – “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Romans 3:23.
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Not one Mormon believes that children can sin. They baptize at the age of eight to be cleansed from their sins because this is when they believe you become accountable for your actions. Have a Mormon try to explain away a two-year-old child’s behavior. Also ask them why they’d have to be baptized for a remission of sins if they were perfect up until they got baptized.
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D&C 29:47-8; “Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me; For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, that great things may be required at the hands of their fathers”.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged angel of light, another Christ, another gospel, another Jesus, another testament, bible, Book of Mormon, false doctrine, false gospel, false prophet, false teacher, freedom, Galatians, grace, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, Moroni, salvation, Savior, truth on 02/23/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 23 – Galatians 1:8 says; “But if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed”.
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Seems evident from this verse that there are no other gospels or testimonies from anyone no matter what they say! The front of the Book of Mormon now says that it is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”. Ask your Mormon friend what his thoughts are about this predicament.
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Joseph Smith said; “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none”. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 71. In other words, there is nothing inside of this religion that has anything to do with Jesus Christ.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged angel of light, bible, Deuteronomy, false doctrine, false prophet, false teachings, freedom, God, grace, history of the Mormon Church, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, mormonism, Mosaic Law, Savior, Shepherd, truth on 02/21/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 21 – God warns us about false prophets in Deut. 13:6-9; “If thy brother, the son of they mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou has no known, thou, nor thy father; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him…”
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It seems clear how serious God was in regards to false prophets. He wanted none of them to survive, and He certainly didn’t want us to pity them. We are told not to listen at all to them.
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Joseph Smith seemed to believe that he could slip out of his self-proclaimed prophet-hood anytime he chose to do so. Is this reasonable considering all we’ve learned just this year? He is quoted in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith as follows; “…I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such”. History of the Church 5:265
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged Adam, Adam baptized, Adam holds the priesthood, Adam spiritually begotten by God, Adam spread the gospel, bible, fall of man, false doctrine, false gospel, false prophecy, false prophet, Garden of Eden, God, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, Michael the Archangel, mormonism, original sin, salvation, Savior, truth on 02/19/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 19 – The word or name Adam is translated in the Hebrew as meaning the first man, or ruddy, from the ground. Gen. 2:19.
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Joseph Smith taught that man’s spirit was sexually begotten by God before he came to earth. He also taught that Adam was actually Michael the angel, and Noah was Gabriel.
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D&C 107:54; “And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.”
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged bible, blood of Christ, body of believers, bride of Christ, clothes of righteousness, false doctrine, false gospel, freedom, Jesus, lds church, protection, Redeemer, salvation, Savior, secret oaths, Teachings of Joseph Smith, temple clothing, temple garments, temple rituals, truth on 02/18/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 18 – God dresses us through Christ Jesus in the garments of salvation as He spoke of in Isaiah 61:10; “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels”.
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Under the Mormon’s street clothing” are their temple garments. These garments are to be worn at all times. They have markings on each breast and groin area for both male and female. Mormons see them as a sign of protection from God and to be set apart from the rest of the world. They use Rev. 16:15 as a reference to their need of being clothed with them.
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“The garment represents sacred covenants. It fosters modesty and becomes a shield and protection to the wearer.” Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple, pg. 21.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged angel of light, bible, Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, false doctrine, false prophet, false teachings, freedom, God incarnate, grace, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, lies, Lucifer, mormonism, Pearl of Great Price, pre-existence, Reedemer, rest for your soul, salvation, Savior, Teachngs of the Prophet Joseph Smith, truth, works vs. grace on 02/17/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 17 – Hebrews 1:5 is clear about what God said in relation to angels and Jesus Christ. “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, THOU ART MY SON, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE? And again, I WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE TO ME A SON?”
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Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are literally spiritually begotten by God and the Heavenly Mother. Ask them what they think about this verse.
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“The contention in heaven was-Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him”. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 357.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged adopted sons of God, bible, Bruce McConkie, false gospel, false teacher, freedom, idol worship, Jesus, joseph smith, lds church, literal offspring of God, Mormon doctrine, mormonism, mother in heaven, polytheist, Redeemer, salvation, truth on 02/16/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 16 – 1 Corinthians 15:47; “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven”.
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Mormons will tell you there aren’t any scriptures that say we don’t have a heavenly mother, yet it’s clear that God is self-existent without the need of anyone’s help for creating us. In fact, He’s the only one to come down from heaven at all, meaning we were not with Him before living on this earth. Ask the Mormon why they believe there is a “Heavenly Mother”.
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“This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church…that man is the “offspring of celestial parentage” and that “all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity””. Mormon Doctrine pg. 516, Bruce McConkie.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged bible, false gospel, false prophet, freedom, God incarnate, godhood, grace, Jesus, joseph smith, Joseph Smith Translation, Mormon doctrine, mormonism, polytheism, Redeemer, Savior, truth on 02/04/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 4 – John 1:1, 14; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth”.
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It’s always important to pay close attention to the wording of contracts, bosses, parents or anything else that is in authority in your life. You may miss a key element that could cost you millions of dollars, cost you your freedom or ultimately your own salvation.
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Joseph Smith’s ‘New Translation’ of the Bible says in John 1:1, 14; “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”.
Posted in Witnessing Tip of the Day, tagged body of Christ, Christianity, Doctrine and Covenants, false gospel, false prophet, freedom, gospel, grace, Jesus Christ, joseph smith, lie, Messiah, mormonism, Redeemer, salvation, salvation through LDS prophet, Savior, truth on 02/03/2011| Leave a Comment »
February 3 – We find salvation in no one else but through our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 says; “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”.
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For the Mormon there is a list of people holding the keys of salvation. At the top of this list is their heavenly father, then Jesus, then Adam, Joseph Smith and next in line is the living prophet. If you happen to be a woman in the church you will also have your husband to answer to.
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“The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds the keys of salvation for all men now living because he is the only one by whose authorization the sealing power of the priesthood can be used to seal men up to salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. (D&C 132:7).”
Posted in Great Debates, tagged blood of Jesus, crucifixion, false gospel, false prophet, families are forever, freedom, grace, Jesus, joseph smith, KGNW, lds church, mormonism, salvation, sealings in the temple, Seattle Radio Debate, Stake President, temple endowments, The Cross, truth, Works for salvation, works for the dead on 01/28/2011| 2 Comments »
THE GREAT DEBATES
October 1988
October 2006
Late October 1988, Las Vegas, Nevada. It was there, that a small group of people stood over a hole in the ground, watching as the tiny white casket which held its precious cargo was lowered into its final resting place. The casket held a child of God that was serving a mission for the Lord and from the results of her funeral; many would come to know the saving power of Christ Jesus, His crucifixion and resurrection.
Of course the baby’s parents felt as bad as they looked on that cold autumn morning and the baby’s grandparents, a couple of uncles and a cousin stood by to support her grief-stricken mom and dad. Nothing anyone could say would make it better as far as her mom was concerned and as the sound of the bishop’s voice droned on, the thoughts of the childless new mother was not at her daughter’s graveside.
Within the first five minutes of the eulogy that cold morning Mallory’s mom frantically searched her memory bank of the Jesus she had heard about in her travels over the past six years. What very little she did know wasn’t even close to what that bishop was proclaiming.
At the end of the graveside service the wind picked up as everyone walked back to their vehicles and the heartbroken mom turned to catch one more glimpse of her baby’s casket. The mom and dad drove home in stunned silence for most of the twenty minute drive back to the apartment. Little things were spoken between the two; “she sure had a lot of black curly hair” and “her nose looked just like…” What was there to be said? There was no baby, no help, no hope, no God to reach to and find comfort. The only thing she left that graveyard with was the bishop’s voice telling her that she would never see her baby again because they hadn’t been married in the temple. God would give Mallory to another family who was worthy of her. That’s when the visual made its appearance and the bishop’s voice began to serve as noise in the background.
When he said the words “she’ll be given to another couple who is worthy of her because they have been married in the temple…” her mind instantly pictured a massive white building with little to no windows; the temple. On the other side of the picture there stood a cross with blood that had been dripping from its owner that made the dust that caught the blood Holy ground.
Back at the apartment the young woman walked in her little home to be greeted by her own mother. As they changed clothes and began making lunch the debate that had been at the tips of everyone’s tongues broke loose.
The younger mom said to the older mom; “…didn’t you hear what that guy said? He told me that I was going to hell!” The older mom shook her head and made a clicking noise with her tongue as she told her daughter that she had misunderstood the bishop. The young, defiant woman knew differently; yet sadly enough neither she nor her husband even discussed the funeral until four years later. However, for now the bishop’s quote of the Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith rang in her ears; “If parents are righteous, they will have their children after the resurrection. Little children who die, whose parents are not worthy of an exaltation, will be adopted into the families of those who are worthy.”
How was that to be misunderstood? It seemed rather dry and pretty straightforward to her. She wanted God, but didn’t know how to go about “getting” Him as she was too intimidated to visit another church. She also didn’t know that the Holy, Merciful God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would bless the couple with two more daughters within the next four years and the greatest gift of all; their salvation!
I never could have imagined that eighteen years later I would be praising a righteous Sovereign God for the gift of Mallory Elizabeth Grim and be involved in yet another debate. This time it would be in a Seattle Christian radio station with my husband and of course who else, but a couple of Mormons?!
The debate in that apartment has now lasted 18 years. I’ve never counted how many times I’ve “debated” with my mother about that day so long ago. She is just as convinced today that I misunderstood and I’m even more convinced I heard them correctly. The divide is wide indeed, but Jesus warned us of these days. He said there would be mothers against daughters and sons against fathers on account of His name.
It is almost surreal for me as I look back on that day in Vegas and think of what God has done for my family and for me too. I never would have imagined that this is what I would be doing; yet now I cannot imagine not doing this work! The debate at KGNW last week with Thor Tolo has blessed us beyond measure. We can’t thank everyone enough for their prayers that went up for the event! I’ve had people pray for me before when I speak or do a radio show, but in all honesty I have never experienced what I did this last week and the week prior to the taping of the show! It was very obvious to those in the studio and to Kirk and me that God was present among us!
I noticed the “misunderstandings” and topics between the debate last week and the debate 18 years ago were very similar. They both contained the following subjects: absence of the cross, no assurance of salvation and good works. The most striking similarity was the emptiness in my heart while I wondered why; both then and now. Why is it they won’t even stop to give it (the truth) the slightest of consideration? What bad thing could it bring upon you to just consider the possibility that there may be some truth in what we (non-Mormons; Christians) proclaim?
Mallory wasn’t the only “thing” I buried that day in 1988. Before I got up from my chair at that gravesite I recall looking down into the grave and picturing myself placing my heritage down there as well. I knew on that day my ignorant, misinformed perception of “my people” was over and done with.
One of the first things Thor asked me at the debate was to explain why I believe the Mormons are not Christians. I told him the main reason is because of the cross. In Mormonism there is no cross in the sense of it being the altar of God. Once again, it’s about the cross, or rather the lack thereof. The sign of the empty cross doesn’t just imply, but shouts out the good news of our salvation and resurrection! On the flip side you see the Mormon parents at their child’s funeral. All that is offered is the hope of going to the temple a year later to work for salvation of the child and the parent; no mention of a cross in that scenario.
When Thor asked Stake President Burnham if he had assurance of his salvation, he replied; “Well now you’re testing my humility”. Oh please. I knew he wouldn’t be able to proclaim any good news of rest for his own soul, assurance that the Shepherd is always with him to lead, console and keep watch over His flock. There is no hope when you are working all the time for your own life. How are you rejuvenated, fed, rested and refreshed? You can’t be if you are the one that is always in control. It took me years to disencumber myself of the filthy robe of self-sufficiency. I felt much like what the apostle Paul described in Romans chapter seven; “why do I do the things I don’t want to do but don’t do the things I want to do”? The only way my life got into order is when I got off the merry-go-round of doing good works for my salvation. Even to this day, how could I be sure if it (salvation) was based on my own worthiness? This week and last week I’ve worked pretty hard. Next week I might get distracted or maybe take it easy. How do I justify myself in God’s eyes with this type of spiritual battle going on inside my soul?
As mentioned earlier, we have been so blessed by seeing God at work in people’s lives. It’s been nothing short of an honor to watch His grace flow to those around us! We’re sending out this praise and prayer report so you can be blessed as well! Continue to pray won’t you that those who are struggling with their decision to either join or leave the Church would be made through the will of the true God of the Bible? And pray for us as we help the people in their decisions so that we would only be focused on Him and our reasons for doing this!
Mr. Burnham e-mailed Kirk and me a couple of days after the debate to let us know that he had researched our claim about the false prophecy of Oliver Granger. We’ll be posting that on the site this week. He wanted us to be sure to let everyone know that indeed the prophecy did come true. He (Burnham) found some letters that were written by Granger’s descendants describing their grandfather and what he had done for the Church. As we stated on the show, it didn’t come to pass. This brings us to a little project. We’re asking everyone to let us know; have you ever heard of Oliver Granger? We’ll be posting our findings on the site at the end of the month!
You can download and listen to the debate by clicking on the links below. Each file is approximately 9 MB. These take you to the website of KGNW and the Live From Seattle Show.
Hour 1:
http://boss.streamos.com/download/swn/miscellaneous/kgnw/lfs_special_hour_1.mp3
Hour 2: http://boss.streamos.com/download/swn/miscellaneous/kgnw/lfs_special_hour_2.mp3
Hour 3: http://boss.streamos.com/download/swn/miscellaneous/kgnw/lfs_special_hour_3.mp3
Praise! We cannot give too many details for privacy reasons, however, someone here in the Puget Sound Community, ex-Mormon, accepted the true Lord Jesus into “their” heart as Lord and Savior because of the debate! All we can say is “Praise God!”
We’ve been in touch several times with a very nice lady who listened to KGNW the Monday after the show (Thor actually had me do the program w/ him impromptu). I was able to pray for a woman whose daughter is thinking of joining the Church. Daughter’s name is Lauren, 18, freshman at University of Washington. Lauren needs to be introduced to good Christian kids on campus.
I (Michelle) received several e-mails from members of the Church who believe that I am totally wrong about my claims in regards to the lack of the cross and want for me to issue a public apology for my statements on KGNW. My answer…no.
Praise! An ex-Mormon Christian listening to the debate wrote in to volunteer to help us at the ministry!
Praise! We have a volunteer for translating our tracts from English into Spanish! Because the Lord provided so quickly and abundantly on this I’m going to be confident in asking my next request! If you speak a language other than English or Spanish and would like to see tracts printed in that language and would be willing to translate them for us, let us know!
Praise! We received many requests for mentoring packets. The new outlines are going to print this week, if you’re interested in an expanded, updated version (80 pgs.), don’t forget to send an e-mail to michelle@lifeafter.org to let me know! We’re requesting $3.00 for s+h for postage.
Prayer and Praise! A 40+ year old mentally disabled man contacted Life After about a week before the debate. He was a convert in the LDS Church and was active for approximately seven years. He felt the Lord tell him two months ago to leave the Church because they weren’t Christian. Ironically enough, Michael, ended up attending my church. He then was listening to the radio, heard the debate and called our ministry line. To make things even more confusing for him, Mr. Burnham (from the debate) is Michael’s Stake President. Various members of his ward are harassing him at the stores, etc., in the town they live. I am confident you’ll know how to pray! J This isn’t the first time I’ve had to deal with the Church and mentally impaired members who want out.
Jeff Burnham – Stake President at debate.
Doug Crandall – Jeff’s neighbor and fellow Mormon at debate.
We thank each and every one of you for praying for us and the ministry. We couldn’t do this without you! May God bless you and our warmest greetings go out to you as you celebrate this upcoming Thanksgiving!
With Love in Christ;
Michelle Grim
1 Cor. 1:18
Quote of the month from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 156; “O ye Twelve! and all Saints! profit by this important Key—that in all your trials, troubles, temptations, afflictions, bonds, imprisonments and death, see to it, that you do not betray heaven; that you do not betray Jesus Christ; that you do not betray the brethren; that you do not betray the revelations of God, whether in Bible, Book of Mormon, or Doctrine and Covenants, or any other that ever was or ever will be given and revealed unto man in this world or that which is to come. Yea, in all your kicking and flounderings, see to it that you do not this thing, lest innocent blood be found upon your skirts, and you go down to hell. All other sins are not to be compared to sinning against the Holy Ghost, and proving a traitor to the brethren.”
Posted in Joseph Smith the Real Story, tagged angel of light, bible, Book of Mormon, con artist, false prophet, freedom, grace, heavenly messenger, Jesus, joseph smith, lies, nine visions, sacred grove, truth on 01/25/2011| 11 Comments »
Joseph Smith’s Character
Will the Real Joseph Smith Please Stand Up?
By Mark Grote 2004
Born on December 23, 1805, Joseph Smith could run faster, throw farther and jump higher than the other kids in Sharon, Vermont. If you tour the sites in Nauvoo, IL., the place of his death, that’s what you’ll hear of Joseph Smith as you move about the historical landmarks.
But if you are interested in facts, instead of legends, you might find yourself questioning whether it’s a good idea to put your eternity in the hands and beliefs of this man.
Posted in Oaths and Loyalty, tagged bible, blind obedience, endowment ceremony, freedom, grace, Jesus, lds church, Mormon oaths, Mormon temple, Mormon testimony, Mosaic Law, oaths, salvation, Savior, secret not sacred, truth, works for the dead, works vs. grace on 01/25/2011| Leave a Comment »
Oaths & Loyalty
Loyalty can be a noble thing in life. There are a number of causes we can be loyal to and as Christians we all know that the loyalty of Jesus’ love for us knows no bounds. But what about mankind; where’s the line of being loyal and the line of blind obedience which can lead to destruction?
My family and I watched a movie this past week about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was a German pastor and theologian who helped secure freedom for Jews from 1939 to the time of his imprisonment in 1943.
The short film about Bonhoeffer, Agent of Grace, is just one of a handful of movies released about Hitler. Each begs the question of what the difference is between loyalty and blind obedience. How could something like the Holocaust happen and why didn’t anyone question their moral conscience when swearing allegiance to Hitler? Every member of the German armed forces swore an oath of allegiance to Hitler. Notice it wasn’t to the country or the constitution of Germany, but to Hitler. They oath each member took is as follows:
“The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934
“I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath.”” (1)
Compare the above information with the oaths of personal allegiance to the constitution of the United States that is taken by each member of the American Armed Forces:
“I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (2)
As you can see, the evidence of where the loyalties of these two militaries lie is abundantly clear. The American military vows to protect our land and Hitler demanded unfettered loyalty to him. This is a classic example of how blind obedience leads to tragedy.
Now while loyalty to your family or friends is commendable, we still have to ask; how far is too far? Seeing the film on Bonhoeffer reminded me of the oaths Mormons will take each time they go to temple or even the oaths they take towards their own souls when “bearing their testimonies”. As you well know the testimony of a Mormon is eerily similar to each other. The same words and phrases are used to define their individual commitment and adoration towards the Church, Jesus, the Book of Mormon and lest we forget; Joseph Smith.
Let me make something very clear before I proceed any further. I do not believe that Mormons behave like Nazis. I do not equate Hitler to any past, present or future prophet of the LDS Church. The reason I use the analogy is to show how blind obedience to a person and/or system is a dangerous behavior.
While some of the words a Mormon will use in their testimonies are in a different order, the main theme runs throughout each. This is typically what you’ll hear;
“I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church on the face of the earth. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and I know that the current president (right now it’s Monson) is a true prophet of God. I know that Christ is the Messiah who died for me and was resurrected on the 3rd day…”
On the LDS Church News website I found a section that gives instructions for members to teach their children how to “bear their testimonies”. (3) According to this site “testimony language is different from talking about God”. Huh?
The site tells the reader they should teach children what to bear testimony of; Christ, Joseph and the Book of Mormon. It then tells them to practice at home in informal settings.
First of all, why would there be such a thing as “testimony language”? Secondly, why should you be taught to “bear testimony of the Church, the prophet Joseph”, etc.? A testimony is a declaration of your faith, or a statement you give while under oath in a court setting to tell what you know of a certain situation. It’s a statement about something you know to be true in your personal experience.
Thirdly, it says to tell the children that their testimonies will grow. Isn’t this a given? I mean why would you tell somebody what to say about the personal things they already know? Why is it they have to be dictated to regarding how they share their own experiences? This is manipulative.
Kirk and I traveled extensively throughout Europe when we lived there in the mid eighties and I’ve often said the one place that reminded me most of Utah was East Berlin. The tones of the people’s voices and the emptiness in their eyes spoke volumes to me. It was obvious to all that the presence of communism had taken its toll.
Throughout all our travels Kirk and I met a lot of people and ironically the one thing that attracted me to the Christians was their testimonies. Each person had their unique story, but each fact they shared with me about Jesus was the same. He loves me, He died for me and He was God incarnate. Those were the only similarities existent in their “testimonies”. No one practiced it before they met me and then recited something by rote, yet the vocabulary they spontaneously used radiated their devotion for Christ Jesus.
The US military gathers their new recruits together and they pledge to obey so that the forces stay strong. Hitler did this to another extreme to ensure that everyone did just as they were told at all times so that he could someday rule the world much like the Romans did. What purpose does it serve for everyone to have similar testimonies, other than to control the masses?
Can you just imagine what the Apostle Paul would’ve said? How would he talk about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon? What do you think his testimony is like up in heaven? With the utter devotion he portrayed to Jesus in his writings, where would Joseph or Monson fit in? If we’re so busy talking about Smith, Hinckley and/or Monson then honestly, where in your testimony does Jesus fit?
To show what I mean about their devotion to Smith take a look at what it says in Joseph Smith: The Choice Seer, Part III, Chapter 25;
“The accumulation of all scholarly knowledge in the earth’s history of events past or the projection of things future will yet pale into embarrassed silence when compared with the knowledge granted us through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Such things stand as a third great evidence of his prophetic calling.”
Just think…even Moses and Isaiah, not to mention Jesus’ knowledge, will “pale in embarrassed silence” when compared to the third grade education of good ol’ Joe. Now in light of this let’s see one of the reasons they say we should trust the prophet Joseph Smith. Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pg. 67;
“GREATNESS OF JOSEPH SMITH. I look upon Joseph Smith as the greatest prophet that ever breathed the breath of life, excepting Jesus Christ. Father Adam, as I have said, stands at the head; but Joseph Smith was reserved to lay the foundation of this great kingdom and dispensation of salvation to the whole human family in these last days, to build up Zion, to establish God’s kingdom, and to prepare it for the coming of the Son of Man.”
Again, unfettered loyalty to a man is a dangerous thing. It has the potential of great destruction either to one person or a whole society. Yet they have the examples listed above on where to direct their loyalty to and even receive other examples from the pulpits of their schools. At Brigham Young University, the apostle Dallin Oaks said this at the CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium;
“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)”
The point is this; on whom or what do you lay your devotion? Making public oaths is a serious business and shouldn’t be taken lightly, yet this is what each and every Mormon does when they bear their testimonies to what they falsely believe is truth. For the Mormon the oath is made to not only Joseph Smith, but to all prophets in the Church, the Book of Mormon and the Church itself. Jesus ends up being a mere sideline attribute. The pressure of believing all this is tremendous as they’re promised suffering for any incompliance.
For example, there is a list of protocols called “The Fourteen Fundamentals of Following Our Prophets”. The complete list will be posted at the end of this article but the last item is what caught my attention. It says;
“The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.”
Now tell me how this is inspired? Where in the Bible did Jesus ever tell us to follow mankind and manmade institutions in this manner?
Pray with us won’t you? Pray for each and every member of the LDS Church to indeed have a personal revelation and testimony as to the truth of this false church and the truth of the One True God, Christ Jesus.
With Love in Christ;
Michelle
Jude 1:24-25; “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.”
1 – http://ddickerson.igc.org/oath-of-loyalty.html
2 – http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm
Liahona June 1981, pg. 1, Ezra Taft Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University); “In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.”
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.”
Posted in KJV Only or Not?, tagged bible, false gospel, gospel, Jesus, KJV, KJV only, lds church, mormonism, NASB, salvation, truth on 01/24/2011| 1 Comment »
KJV Only or Not?
Matthew 10:16; “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” – Geneva Study Bible
Around 1999 I wrote an article for the Saints Alive newsletter when I worked for Ed Decker at the ministry. From the time Ed opened the doors of SA until that day he had published his newsletters in KJV only.
Ed had asked me for an article, so I wrote it and sent it in to him. What I hadn’t paid attention to was that I quoted scripture from my NASB (New American Standard Bible). Ed prayed before he sent it to the printers and the Lord told him to send it as is.
Within a day of sending out the newsletters we began reaping what we had sown. We lost many of our supporters, but then gained others. Ed’s response in the following newsletter taught me how God works. He called me into his office as our phones began ringing and said he agreed with me in Bible translations and that God speaks in all languages. Now I can’t speak for Ed; only Ed can do that, but I do know his personal choice of bible translations is the NKJV.
As I sit here more than a decade later I am facing the same topic but in a different venue. So let me say this about the KJV only issue.
I have chosen to publish the website with KJV references because that is what the Mormon people use as their Bible. I like the KJV and refer to it often during my personal study times during each day. It’s a beautiful Bible and I enjoy it immensely. I also employ and rely upon Strong’s Concordance and English dictionaries. The Bible I personally use every day and carry with me to church every Sunday is the NASB.
I use study tools from Oswald Chambers, Charles Spurgeon, John Calvin, Charles Stanley, Chip Thompson, J. Vernon McGee, Martin Luther, Adrian Rogers, Walter Martin, Moody and the list goes on!
I am totally convinced God Almighty speaks other languages in addition to 1611 English. I am reminded of it each day as I study His words in my NASB and when I receive my web-tracking report on how many people have used the Alta Vista Babelfish program we’ve installed on our website. People from every nation have visited our website and used the translation tool.
As you can imagine and know for yourselves, there are also countless Bibles written which are blasphemous and not worthy of mention. I have gone throughout the last seventeen years by proving that which is good, honorable and worthy of praise. If it does not line up with what God says and coincides with His intent then I will be the first to run the other way. And while I am not a theologian nor am I a language expert, I can’t for the life of me understand the divisiveness in the KJV issue that seems to plague us as Christians in the English speaking nations.
I am certain God speaks to the people from Sai Pan or Guam in the Mariana Islands through their Chamorro bibles and to the people in Hernhut, Germany in their German bibles.
I am comforted in knowing He has spoken to the Kenyans from their Ekegusii Bibles as they write in to thank us for having the courage to publish our website.
I’m reminded of God’s omniscience every time I look at the pictures my daughter Jacqui brought back with her from the two month mission trip she took to Ethiopia. They handed out Bibles in Amharic, served hundreds of people and led many to the Lord. We are also grateful for the opportunity Jacqui had in southwestern Ethiopia sharing the gospel with the Kara tribe on the Omo River.
I’m reminded of His omnipotence when I hear from my dear Portuguese pastor friend named Luiz.
I am humbled beyond words when I read my ancestor’s Welsh Bible knowing that not all of them were tricked by the likes of Joseph Smith and his teachings.
I’m reminded of how blessed I am by knowing John Johnson who is a Nepali national and got saved on a mountain top in Nepal while praying to a Hindu god. He now works for the American Bible Society and translates the Bible from the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic into two different Hindi languages.
I know God’s overwhelming love for HIV infected Fisya and Yeshi, the children Kirk and I sponsor through World Vision in Ethiopia and live hundreds of kilometers from each other and speak different languages.
I am filled with awe each time my youngest daughter Axi returns from a mission trip to Bohol, Philippines. They share the gospel at the schools of deaf children in the poorest part of the Philippines and have seen many children accept Christ Jesus through the Bibles in their native tongue – Pilipino.
I am grateful to Him who supplies our every need in being able to sponsor little Mario in Los Cedros, Nicaragua. Our church adopted an entire town and has sent our own members who are doctors, teachers and engineers to help them build homes, a health center and schools. The Bible he reads is in Spanish.
I still can’t believe Jesus allowed me to live next door to the Kim family who moved here from Korea. Pastor Shin and his family now live in Minneapolis as he is a translator for IHOP (International House of Prayer). And yes, their Bible is in Korean and yes, they also know the One True God.
I stand in awe and have learned so much about Him through my friend Daniel who is a Messianic Jewish believer and director of Chosen People Ministries in London. His Bible is in Hebrew.
I pray daily for the missionaries who hosted a booth next to ours at Seattle Missionsfest. They distribute bibles throughout the poorest tribes of Africa to the tribal elders. The Bibles are picture bibles. They go out and teach the gospel to the tribal fathers and elders and they in turn teach the gospel to their tribesmen.
I am often reminded of God’s omnipresence when I think of my friends who live here in Seattle but are from Paraguay. Eleanor’s grandmother escaped the horrible regime of Stalin in Russia only to be put into prison by Hitler’s henchmen while escaping through Germany. The family finally made it to Paraguay and then immigrated here to the states. The grandmother taught all her children and grandchildren how to read and speak several languages so they could read the Bible wherever they were living. Russian, German, Spanish and English is spoken by all of the family members. Their personal favorite Bible is in German.
They used it while serving missions in China and personally delivered pages from the Chinese Bible to those in their home churches.
I will always be learning something new about God from my dear, dear friends Jean Boardman and her late husband Bob. Bob got his throat box and part of his right hand shot off during WW2. He then turned around to serve God with his new bride and to raise his family in the very place he got shot during the war just to minister to the Japanese people in Okinawa. Every one of the people he encountered during those thirty two years used their Japanese Bibles not printed in KJV English.
Now I am just one little person living in the outskirts of Seattle. I’m not famous, I’m not a language expert, and I’m not a heretic, of this I am sure. I also know that God has allowed me to meet all the people I’ve mentioned for a certain purpose. After my experience with Ed at Saints Alive and with all the people God has introduced me to, I know what that purpose is.
God is not a respecter of persons. He looks upon all of us the same and sees us as His children when we are washed with His Son’s precious, holy blood. He told us in His word that it wouldn’t return void in Isaiah 55:11 and His word is pure in Proverbs 30:5. He also told us His word would endure forever in Isaiah 40:8 and Jesus Himself said not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled – Matthew 5:18.
I don’t know about you but I believe what He’s saying. I also know there are indeed some horrible bible translations and it’s your job as a Christian to stay away from those things not from God. However, to arbitrarily throw out all Bible translations but one in 1611 English just doesn’t seem rational.
This line of thinking is saying that God is not able to produce any other human being with the talent or desire to keep His word pure. If God can’t do that maybe God can’t ensure the gates of hell won’t prevail against His church as He promised in Matthew 16:18 or maybe God can’t provide good pastors for his flocks. Are God’s arms strong enough to hold a grieving mother through His words on a page? What about the man who was just furloughed from his job? What about my dear friend Jean Boardman who lost her husband and best friend Bob after 55 years of marriage?
I would also suggest to the reader to take a look at the attitude of some that is attached to the KJV only issue. Some, not all, of the proponents of this theory are almost rabid in their approach with this. If it’s truly the only way we can hear from God, then why the ferocious defensiveness? I’ve come to the realization that Jesus is a big God; He doesn’t need people with a bad attitude to spread His good news.
There are even websites and ministries out there with the KJV only theory that also condemns Strong’s Concordances, the Matthew Henry Commentary, Brown, Driver and Briggs, as well as many other very reputable dictionaries, commentaries and concordances. One went so far as to condemn these and “all Greek and Hebrew Study Tools and Interlinears”.
My question for the latter example is why should we even trust your books if every dictionary is condemned? What makes this particular insight the only way? As I’ve stated many times before – I did that for thirty years with an organization who thought they held the only truth. I hadn’t even heard of Palm Sunday until I got saved on that very day. I was always taught other people “knew better”. Really?
I hope you’d think about this – heavily. If we’re to condemn all Greek and Hebrew Study tools then how are we to gain a deeper understanding of Him? Why wouldn’t God provide reputable scholars? Why are they all to be condemned? The Catholic Church pulled this off for over a thousand years. They didn’t want the truth of God to be handled by the average, every day person so they burned the translators and publishers of His word.
We should be praising God every day for His gift of Tyndale, Wycliffe, Hus, Knox and Luther to name a few. I have to wonder if they’d be condemned under the same pen used by today’s critics…
The goal of this article isn’t to be divisive. It’s to encourage people to think things through. Know that there are indeed bad translations and bad people in this world who are intentionally out to trick God’s people. Then there are those who’ve been misinformed who go about misinforming others. Test the spirits as John warned us to do and follow Him – all the way to Jerusalem.
I’ve listed three verses from different versions of the Bible – see for yourself what you think.
Matthew 28:18-20 –
NASB – “And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
KJV – “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
ESV –“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
RSV/ASV – “And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”
Amplified Bible – “Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).”
Isaiah 40:8 –
NASB – “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God
stands forever.”
KJV – “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God
shall stand for ever.”
ESV – “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.”
RSV/ASV – “The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever.”
Amplified Bible – “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.”
Matthew 5:18 –
NASB – “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not
the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
KJV – “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
One tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
ESV – “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
RSV/ASV – “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.”
Amplified Bible – “For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.”
With Love in Christ;
Michelle Grim
1 Cor. 1:18
Leading Mormons to the Real Jesus Christ
Posted in Baptisms for the Dead, tagged baptisms for the dead, baptize, bible, endowments, false gospel, freedom, gospel, heresy, Jesus, lds church, Mormon temple, mormonism, ordinance, proxy baptisms, truth, works vs. grace on 01/24/2011| 1 Comment »
Baptisms for the Dead
The following paragraph about the practice of baptizing the dead was taken from Jefflindsey.com, an LDS “apologetic” website–if there is such a thing. It shows how Mormons helplessly try to explain the practice of baptizing the dead:
“Baptism for the dead is a powerful evidence that Joseph Smith was a real prophet and the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored. The LDS practice has long been derided as absolute fiction and an abomination, and based on a terrible mis-interpretation of 1 Cor.15:29. However, long after Joseph Smith restored the practice through revelation, dozens of ancient documents have turned up showing that early Christians (at least some) indeed believed in and practiced baptism for the dead much as we do today. “
I am always glad to see the appearance of the phrase “through revelation” because it usually means that all other Mormon explanations have been exhausted leaving only “we do what we want through revelation.”
If there’s a part of scripture that best illustrates how Mormons twist the word of God, this is it. We have always maintained that Mormons are great basing an entire belief system upon one or two verses of scripture. This is a well known fact amongst those of us who work in the field of counter-cult ministries. The LDS Church is no exception to this rule, although they would vehemently deny the allegations. There is literally one verse that talks about baptism for the dead and this is what the Mormon Church has put their minds on to set a standard of a dead work for their god. It is found in 1 Corinthians 15:29 and it says; ‘Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?’
The key to understanding scripture is to read all things in context before you apply it to any teaching. The first half of 1 Corinthians 15 is speaking about the absurdity of not believing in the resurrection of the dead. Paul gave examples of those who had witnessed Jesus’ resurrection and then went on to explain that baptizing for dead people was even more absurd if they didn’t believe in the resurrection. The uniqueness of Christianity lies in the resurrection of the dead. For whatever reasons, the Corinthian church believed they needed to perform this proxy for the dead and Paul was there to set them straight.
Joseph Smith is quoted in the book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 179 as follows; ‘The Saints have the privilege of being baptized for those of their relatives who are dead, whom they believe would have embraced the Gospel, if they had been privileged with hearing it, and who have received the Gospel in the spirit, through the instrumentality of those who have been commissioned to preach to them while in prison.’
Several questions arise in my mind when I read this thought process of Smith’s. First of all, how does one know if their dead relative got the chance to hear the gospel in spirit prison? Secondly, how could someone ever presume that their dead relative would even accept the gospel? Third, if, as many Mormon leaders teach today, that all people will be caught up in the first two levels of heaven regardless of whether they’re Mormon believer or not (i.e. they deny the concept of hell), then what is the point of baptizing the dead? Aren’t we all already going to heaven?
Let’s look at the exact passage in scripture:
1 Cor. 15: 29
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” KJV.
Just to gather some meaning here, let’s read the same verse from the NLV to get a better understanding:
“What good will it do people if they are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised, why are people baptized for them?”
Mormon “apologists” put all their reasoning behind the word “they,” in 1 Cor. 15:29, as if to imply that since Paul said “they” in referring to his fellow apostles in the early part of the chapter, that he means to attribute “they” to [the apostles’] practices later in the chapter as well.
We cannot build a doctrine based on that. We need more. We need to know what is biblical and what is not, based on the entire bible. Since God is not a God of confusion, He tells us what is His ways and what is not. We know that when we see things mentioned in the bible, as in God’s law in the Old Testament, we also saw it in practice in the scriptures as well. Paul talks about living a life for Christ numerous times in the New Testament and we see many characters in the Gospels doing just that. We also see what Paul wrote to the Churches in Ephesus, Corinth and others, yet again, we see it put into practice in Acts. We also know that the Church of Corinth was a church that was practicing some strange rituals. They had lost their way and Paul’s letter was sent to correct that. That alone should make us suspicious and cause us to question his motives for mentioning baptisms for the dead—if the context to the chapter were not obvious already.
But let’s look at this from one other angle. Doesn’t it seem reasonable that if baptisms for the dead were truly God’s way, then it’s a significant thing? Forgetting or not baptizing the dead as the Mormon’s teach would cost someone their salvation, or so we’re led to believe by LDS doctrine. That’s an incredible statement if true! If it were a practice of the early church, and a teaching of Jesus Christ that Paul taught as well, shouldn’t it have appeared somewhere else in scripture? Perhaps Paul just wasn’t that concerned about the dead. And perhaps Jesus had better things to do.
Again, I cannot over emphasize this. The idea of baptizing the dead so that people could be resurrected who would otherwise be lost for all eternity is a rather astonishing idea. And there is much to be lost if the Church has failed to practice this exercise. Were it not the pagan ritual that it is, then we should have seen it put into practice by the early church. The book of Acts gave us many examples to follow, preaching, baptism, and laying on of hands, to name a few.
I was baptized for the dead on several occasions in the Ogden Temple while I was growing up as a Mormon in Utah. I remember thinking I had never heard of any of the people I was baptized for so I was unable to say if those people accepted the gospel. Each time I went to do my proxy work I wondered if what I was doing was in vain. I prayed that with all my hard work to stay holy and pure to get in the temple wouldn’t be for nothing. I wasted many hours praying they would accept what I had to offer them.
The Lord tells us to set our minds upon the things of Christ. In 2 Corinthians 10:5 it says; ‘Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ’. The church keeps their members busy so they don’t have the time to think about the obedience of Christ, let alone anything He would want them to do, i.e., studying His Word.
My prayer now is that if you are a Mormon, you will study the entire passage in 1 Corinthians 15 to see where this teaching originated. I can assure you that it had nothing to do with the Mormon Jesus’ teaching on the ‘eternal principles’ of baptizing for the dead in the meridian of times and everything to do with Jesus’ resurrection as told consistently in other scriptures in the bible. Can Mormons present the same evidence for Baptism of the dead being taught elsewhere in scripture?
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Why would you place your salvation into the hands of a false prophet?
There are several versions of Smith's first vision; which one do you believe?
An examination of Joseph Smith's death
Kinderhook Plates and The Greek Psalter Incident serve as further proof Smith was a false prophet
Who was the real Joseph Smith?
LDS OT Sunday School Lessons
Mormon lives are busier than most. With meetings, temple attendance, food storage, the strive to be perfect - it's overwhelming and far from having peace in knowing Christ. Find out why!
The LDS Church doesn't ascribe to the orthodox belief in original sin; why is that?
Compare LDS doctrine w/ the Bible
Mormonism's True Agenda; Saving Souls or Ruling America?
Mormons are faced with confusing doctrine every time they open their scriptures.
Quotes & false prophecies from Mormon leaders
Why does Mormonism mimic so many religions? Astrology, witchcraft, Satanism, Masonry, Universalism, Hinduism...it's all there in one package called Mormonism. Why?
Jesus said; "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32
Moroni, Comoro off the coast of East Africa
Galatians 1:6-9 says not to accept another gospel from an angel of light, yet atop every LDS temple there sits an angel of light proclaiming a new gospel...
Why is talking to dead people condoned in Mormonism?
An examination of the LDS' latest teachings from the presidency to the women's groups. Find out why their monthly messages aren't biblical!
Why are there so many rules to obey for salvation if Mormonism is a Christian church?
Could this book cost you salvation in Jesus?
Why Doesn't the Church Practice Polygamy Today?
Ordained of God?
Find out what Mormon Church leaders really think of polygamy
All the rules of how to pray and what to say leaves no room for a conversation with the Lord!
"Prophet" John Taylor in prison for polygamy
Does a true prophet of God preach racism?
1978 Prophecy, Book of Moses, Curse of Cain, 2 Nephi 30:6, All are Alike Unto God...What is the truth?
Are comments like "blacks are slaves mentally" really from the God of the Bible or racist men?
Romans Road to Salvation
Mormon Salvation vs. Biblical Salvation. Find out why they're not the same!
Know the Difference between Christianity and pseudo-Christianity!
True Mormon salvation = godhood with multiple wives and countless spirit babies
A commandment from God or necromancy?
Sacred or secret?
How does swearing secret oaths glorify God?
The biblical temple and Mormon temples have virtually nothing in common; find out why
Mormon vocabulary is vastly different from the norm. If you're a Christian & feel you're speaking a different language, learn about the differences here.
How you can know and trust what God has to say in His word
A Collection of News Items and Prophetic Utterances from and about Mormonism
Mormonism & Christianity are not compatible - find out why.
"...for I know whom I have believed..." 2 Tim. 1:12
Would a true apostle say this? Heber C. Kimball; "I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
The Mormon pioneers trekking across America is re-enacted every year by faithful Mormons to honor the faith of their ancestors
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